Monday, January 17, 2011

A short break... and musings

I think it's important for me to note that my blog entries are very time-consuming to write. Seeing that I am returning to school and have a full coarse load of science classes, I wanted to alert everyone who has decided to read the blog that I am going on a short hiatus.

I'm not done chronicling Jacko but I definitely need a break. I have more to say, but no time to say it in the way that I do, with facts and links and documents to back up all of my valid opinions.

Who knows how long this break will be; it could be a week or more or a few days. Just so I can get adjusted to my schoolwork.

As always, I plan to come back with a vengeance and be refreshed to unearth new details. Unlike school, this blog will not ensure me with a degree or an income, so it needs to take a back seat.

I plan to resume the blog as soon as possible...

I wanted to note, though; I've been reading on the internet and it seems as if there are misconceptions about my 'Michael Jackson was gay' post. I never imagined that the explosive evidence of foreign male semen would cause such a stir of denial!

I thought it was pretty explosive. Apparently, the explanations that are most likely are never likely enough for Jacko fans. 

This is why I exhort everyone to read the 'Addendum to 'Michael Jackson was gay'' post. It is more in detail and it totally explains all of my answers to the criticism of the original piece. For some reason, there seems to be fans hung up on his own claims of not being gay as proof he was not gay.

Nonsense, utter nonsense.

In their delusions, they fail to remember this was a man who repeatedly lied about everything under the sun. He was taught to lie immediately when he got into show business. While the reality is that even liars can tell the truth the tenth time around, common sense dictates we use caution to when weighing their words.

Michael Jackson lied about his numerous plastic surgeries (as if we were blind); about Blanket Jackson's mother being black (if she were black, Michael is not the father); about feeding the hyperbaric chamber and Elephant Man's bones stories to the tabloids; about being with Brooke Shields and Tatum O'Neal; about a lot of things, maybe even his skin and his children's paternity.

After all of this, an intelligent person would take his words with a grain of salt until further investigation. 

After my own investigation, I decided to not give any mention to his own proclamations of heterosexuality. Especially given the other factors, all of which are detailed in the Addendum.

The pornography seems to be something of a conundrum. I mentioned it, too, in the Addendum because I find it to be the only monkey wrench in the design plan (it was not nor ever Lisa Marie Presley). An intelligent person, as I fancy myself, knows that it would be naive to assume such a large porn stash or collection would be solely for the young boys that go to Neverland. But in the face of no women, except the dysfunctional relationships with Lisa Marie Presley and Debbie Rowe, as well as books featuring loving homosexual couples or graphic depictions of gay sex, the heterosexual porn collection carries little weight, if only to induce confusion.

Pornography is not a substitute for a real relationship with a woman, and it certainly does not declare a man to be one hundred percent straight. It's strong circumstantial evidence of an interest in women, though.

It is not, however, stronger than the evidence of semen stains on his mattress

We all know why the Defense wanted to keep it out, and that was because they knew what it was and what it meant.

We all have to remember Tom Mesereau, Michael Jackson's lead defense attorney in 2005, brought nothing to confirm Michael was heterosexual. Intelligent minds would know it was because he had nothing. He did, however, try to insinuate a romantic relationship between Michael Jackson and Jordie Chandler's mother, June, albeit unsuccessfully. 

Note: he never had a relationship with June Chandler. 

Any good defense lawyer knows that de-emphasizing homosexuality is necessary when trying to prove one's male client is not guilty of same-sex child molestation. Thus, the evidence of these mystery semen stains on Michael's mattress and in sheets and underwear were kept out of trial. 

We have to remember what Wade Robson said on the stand when asked about Michael's--let's face it--gay pornographic book, Man, A Sexual Study of Man on May 5, 2005:
Q. Is it a fact, as you look through that book,
25 what is depicted in that book throughout that book
26 are a series of photographs of two men engaged in
27 sex acts with one another?
28 A. Yes.
1 Q. And in fact, the sex acts are all acts of
2 either masturbation, oral sex or sodomy; is that
3 right?
4 A. From what I saw, yes.
5 Q. And sodomy, as you understand, is an act of
6 anal sex; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Would you be concerned about a person who
9 possesses that book crawling into bed with a
10 ten-year-old boy?
11 A. Yes, I guess so.
Quite so, Wade.

It is only common sense, because pedophilia is an age distinction, not a gender distinction; Michael would be a gay pedophile.

It was a smart move on the Defense's part to not 'push it' with the heterosexuality and leave it at the pornography stacks, which, again, are not a smoking gun to Michael having liked women. Opening it up could have brought trouble.

Everything I write here on the blog are things that I believe in. When I wrote that the semen stains were explosive proof of Michael Jackson having had sexual contact with males, I meant it. And I stand by it.

If it had been anyone else's bed--anyone besides Michael Jackson--the stains would be considered by people possessing a modicum of intelligence to have been made through sexual contact with the bed owner. But since it is Michael Jackson, that cannot be possible.

To his fans, strange semen could have fell from the sky before it could be the result of a passionate night between Michael and a male lover.

I should note that if there had been vaginal stains on his mattress or a phantom thong soiled with Michael's semen, I would say, "Wow, I guess he really was with women." I am fair and I am not delusional. I stand with the facts and the evidence. 

I like Michael Jackson being gay and I prefer it; to me, it became obvious. That bias, however, did not cause me to slant the research. I wrote 'Michael Does Vegas' out of the lovingness of my heart and I wish Michael Jackson could have came out of the closet. 

I implore everyone to open all of the document links in the 'gay' posts. I am not kidding about my findings. Use a little common sense, too. Defense lawyers work for their clients; the Jackson team knew what evidence--what truth--they were burying from the eyes of the world.

Okay, that's all.

Sayonara, for now! 


~ Desiree

62 comments:

Sarah said...

Desiree
Of course, your studies must come first!
As usual your post is an indication of your eloquence and intelligence. However, to most of the readers of this blog the evidence speaks for itself. There are so many people unfortunately that just don't get it. As you say the semen on Michael's bed just fell from the sky! I wished to God that he had been having a helluva time with ladies in his bed, but I'm afraid the evidence does not point to that. For a time in my life I adored MJ, saw him in concert, even met him in 1996, as I've mentioned before, but facts are facts. When MJ died I believed he was an innocent man whose life had been so terrible because of money hungry hangers on and the tabloid press. I believed that he was straight and that the marriages had been real (I was never convinced about the kids though)until I started to read a few books, and the court transcripts both from 2005 and 1993. I mamanged to get in touch with some connected people and ask just enough questions not to be a pain in the ass, so they would continue to correspond with me. The picture soon became clear, your blog was the icing on the cake, you showed me things that I never knew, which just consolidated my own thoughts. I really wished that female secretions had been found on the mattress, I wish I believed in the marriage to LMP as that of a loving couple and not a coniving piece of dsmage control on Michael's part. I really wanted him to be normal not gay or a pedophile. I believe that in time more amd more information will come out about the life and "loves" of MJ, perhaps one day Gavin will speak about his ordeal with Michael. I think that this book that Latoya is releasing in June 2011 will just be a waffling on about the conspiracy concerning Michael's death and his catalogue of songs, I don't think for one minute she will reiterate the things she said in the 90's! It would be better if she did, I think she'd sell more copies!
But for now, I thank you for educating me, I still have so many questiions that I would like to ask both yourself and other readers of this blog, particularly Len, but will wait patiently until you are ready to "speak" again.
Cheers
Sarah

Len said...

Desiree, I always enjoy your blog so much. And when you are able to come up for air, I'll read it with relish. However, I definitely understand making school your priority.

I have thought about other celebrities' fans. Fandom is something I don't understand. But when I have checked websites for other celebrities, their fans lack the blatant insanity of Michael's fans.

Alby said...

To be honest I don't think MJ knew how to have a real, adult relationship with a woman. I believe he took the 'path of least resistance' and had relationships with boys. He found it easy to find boys, build a relationship with them, and when he tired of them just changed his number or didn't issue invites any more.

Enjoy your break.

Desiree said...

Sarah:

I actually like Michael Jackson being gay. I prefer it. When I first got on to him, I was strangely attracted to him and didn't want him to be gay. But I always thought he seemed it, even when he was still black. Cher had a story, one of the first Jacko anecdotes I remembered after his death, that he loved her sparkly sequined socks so much that she gave him a pair.

Maybe it's stereotypical, but that's pretty gay to me, especially for pubescent boy.

I don't know, I think it's funny Michael liking males. Not breaking the law, but him not being straight. A sort of 'Stick it to you' kind of thing with the fans.

I'm glad you have enjoyed my blog thus far and I will try to be back sooner than later. :-)


Len:

I was wondering what is the mental thought processes of the fans, too. I remember on another blog, the writer said Beyonce fans were bad, too, that they'd call anyone a 'hater' (sounds familiar?) if the person didn't like what Beyonce was wearing to an event.

I think rabid Jacko fans are probably the worse, because their idol is a criminal and by nature people dislike criminals. It's just a whole lot of history revisionism. And there has to be a level on unintelligence that goes into not being able to connect the dots.

Where there's smoke, there's fire.

I'm glad you, too, enjoy the blog and I will be at it when I've balanced my priorities at school.

Desiree said...

Alby:

I definitely agree with that. But I think he's always been gay. Whatever relationships he'd had with women (and we can only think of two) had to be hard for him. I think he tried but he failed.

GirlUndercover said...

I like the idea of him being gay too. And for being honest, his rabid fans deserved it. As a fan myself (I am one, believe me lol) I feel disgusted seeing how they choose to see what they want to see. Explanations and "evidence" for him being straight can be used as well for him being gay. Like "Please if he was gay the whole world would know it for now...he was the most followed man in the world!"
Ok...it has sense, actually. But then I would say "Please if he was a playboy and had had that girlfriends that the BG talked, the world would know it by now! He was the most followed man...right? So why nobody saw them?!"
And of course, their only argument is "HE WASN´T GAY, PERIOD!" Ok...
I know there are more fans who think like me. If they believe he would be able to hide girlfriends, so they have to admit he could have done the same with men.
I have a lot in my head, the reasons why MJ most rabid fans are HYPOCRITE.
Besides what I wrote before:
-They believe Michael was a very private man, but believed as well when the bodyguards claimed seeing/hearing him making out in the backseat...
-They admit Michael learned very early how to fool the public but they believe as well he didn´t say a lie in his life of very few...(yeah some believe he just had two nose jobs and Blanket´s mother is black...)
-They were able to say Jason Pfeiffer lied because of his body language, though Lisa Marie didn´t face the camera many times and her eyes were almost facing wandering (a sign when someone lies) but many, many fans believed her. (But there are proof she really lied, I will talk about that later)
Funny, Jason´s eyes faced more the camera than hers...

Sarah said...

GirlUndercover
I didn't mean I didn't like the idea of him being gay, I just wish he had lived an honest life and been open about his sexuality the way many artists have, eg Ricky Martin, Elton John and George Michael. Being gay never stopped them selling records. I know it is said that homosexuality is not accepted in the black community, I can't comment on that as I am white, I do know one thing though, MJ had a lot of black and white fans who wouldn't have cared about his preference as long as it was legal! I honestly think that he liked the controversy, he enjoyed the fact that no one really knew if he was straight or gay, he felt it kept them guessing I think. Anyway, with hindsight when you look at videos etc of MJ there's no way in hell he looks straight. I believe he even got "gayer" as he got older if that is possible! There was very little that was masculine about him, the rabid fans want to believe that he was "all man" and he certainly looks it in those gold pants, but on occasion he cried like a baby who couldn't get his way. How masculine is that, he wore women's perfume for god sake, I'm not saying that is a dedinite pre cursor for gayness, but how many men do you know that want to smell like a chick? Same with the lipstick and the sequins! I hear cries of he was an artiste! Yes he was and they are naturally sensitive and other worldly, but the fact of the matter is most straight men prefer to share their beds with women who are up for it, not little boys, because they get inspiration from it. All that inspiration from innocence stuff is particularly creepy! I personally think he needed to get laid a bit more, but we know that Papa Joe tried to organise that a couple of times, and that didn't wort either! His fans say he was shy and a gentleman, that's why he had enough porn to sink a ship, gay erotica, bondage dolls, booze, vaseline and a semen soaked mattress with 3 different strains of male DNA on it.
Personally I believe Arnold Klein and Jason, why would they lie? Yhey must have lnow the ire that they would draw from fans when they told their story, it certainly hasn't been advantageous for them Who can forget Elizabeth Taylor's reaction, she hardly denied it, more like admonished Klein for breaking a confidence. Didn't it seem strange that she did this thru Twitter for the world to see, surely she had Klein's number, I feel sure he would have taken her call! I too agree about the LMP interview with Oprah, she wasn't telling the truth about a lot of things, Oprah also came across as false, apparenty LMP didn't know that Oprah thought MJ was a child molester and that MJ hated her because she said as much during the trial. LMP said that she didn't know he had a drug problem, then said that she picked him up from the Drs and he was incoherent! He clearly admitted he had an addiction in 1993, and went into rehab for it! She said that she continued a relationship with him for 4 years after the divorce in 1996 but she was engaged to another guy by the end of 1999. She said that she left Danny for MJ, yet his brother was a witness at her wedding to MJ, something fishy there I think. Nothing really made any sense and was a total contradiciton to what she had said in so many other interviews before his death. In those interviews she said marrying him was the biggest mistake of her life and that she was embarrassed about the whole thing. In an interview with Howard Stern she even called him a mother effer! Nice, but of course she really loved him and understands the relationship now all of a sudden! Give me a break! When is the record released Lisa?

Alby said...

You know Desiree, one thing is bugging the hell out of me.

It's the Arvizos. They have been portrayed as grifters, liars and money hungry... yet since the trial they have been getting their lives on track. The Arvizo boys have been studying hard, the step dad went to Iraq to serve, the Mom (apart from her trouble with a spot of welfare fraud tried just after the trial) has kept quiet.

Most surprisingly, despite being offered huge chunks of money by the media for their story, they have asked for nothing and haven't jumped at the chance to make a fast buck.

That really makes me wonder about whether they have been unfairly portrayed....

GirlUndercover said...

I feel the same Sarah.
Upsets me how the rabid fans give excuses for anything. Of course Jason and Arnie didn´t have a reason to lie, they gained nothing! They gained death threats and anguish (another fan hypocrisy..."It´s all for love"...really?)They hurt a man who probably Michael cared for.
The fans give the excuse that negative news sell so Arnie and Jason had much to gain...BS!
About Liz, I thought about that too. Do you know her story with Hudson? He was gay but Liz always denied it, but she KNEW he was! Sooo even if she had denied Michael´s homosexuality...it would mean NOTHING! Many fans got upset because she didn´t deny...LMAO! A true proof they really know NOTHING! If they´re so sure what´s the problem then?! What´s the diference her deny or not?
Concerning Lisa, she was dating some men around that four years. If she and Michael were trying something again why she dated others? It´s true there are pics from 98 with them together, but if you pay attention you´ll see Lisa trying to take off his mask but he didn´t let her. So she kissed him through it. Funny because there is a pic a fan took off his mask, kiss him and he LET her! LOL
I agree with you that Michael liked the controversy. In the late 70´s he claimed sometingh like "I don´t mind if they believe I´m gay because THEY DON´T KNOW THE TRUTH"...in other interview, when asked if he was gay he said he didn´t want to answer it...then he ordered the camera to be shut down...
He really was more efeminate when he got older. Anyone can see that! But I know a fan who said she thought Michael was gay in the 80´s but now she doesn´t beleive it...ok...

Len said...

It's not that I want to throw a monkey wrench in the works, but most transvestites are heterosexual or even bisexual. (I used to date one; but that's enough personal info about me.) My post is not to be argumentive. I just wanted to be sure people are aware of that.

This, of course, does not make Michael a heterosexual transvestite, especially since there is a community of gay transvestites. However, had Michael gone to therapy, I honestly believe he would have chosen adult men for romantic relationships, or may have been a very gay-leaning bisexual man. But the sexual abuse from childhood was never addressed in therapy, and so he continued the cycle of abuse by sexually abusing little boys. The bottom line is Michael was a very sick man, who chose to surround himself with a lot of enablers. This includes his rabid fans, who, for some reaso, need to believe in the public image he portrayed. I have no respect for them; they deserve to have their fantasies shattered.

Susana said...

Desirée,

I appreciate your work greatly, but studies and your life come first.
I always thought the cocaine in the underwear story was made up by the tabloids, until I came to your site. Obviously the rabid fans never post the proofs or the stories that made him look bad.

Those die-hard fans crack me up. They are really mad.
They make up stories about Mj being a womanizer where depict sex scenes and dialogues as if they were watching the action in a video and scam other fans as if it was insider information. Also, there is a group of fans who are creating some of those stories and posting them incognito in another site. They are having a good laugh at those girls expense, because they believe it all.
What I find more disturbing is not their delusion, but the way most of them interpret masculinity. They love when in a show Mj spanked Siedah Garret's arse. Anyone with a functioning brain can see that this is pure show and Mj isn't even convincing at it. He looks as gay and stiff when interacting with a woman as always. This is one of the most ridiculous scenes I've ever seen in a stage. But they love how “masculine” he looks beating a woman. I read some of them making excuses for one of his brothers beating his wife.They enjoy and create stories where he's portrayed like a pathological jealous man who reacts aggressively or disrespects his “undisciplined” girl lovers. Add the golden pants, the crotch grabbing, etc. All very subtle LOL.
I assume that most of them are very young and inexperienced, but even so, it is sad that in 2011 young girls show this kind of toxic thinking and twisted interpretation of a man's seductive and masculine conduct.

On the other hand, they ignore his blatant gay mannerisms. When Michael acts like a XIX Century damsel in a cheap drama, it is because he is a sensitive, innocent and sweet man. Yeah, sure.

GirlUndercover said...

Susana,
So true what you said.
Jason´s story was published in a gay forum. A rabid fan posted some ridiculous "proof" he wasn´t gay like that video he spanked Siedah´s ass and others. She received the answer: That wasn´t proof, was a cover. Funny how that scenes was just when he was on stage...
I remember reading in a board a comparation between Michael and Ricky Martin. They said something like Ricky balanced his hips and Michael hit his hips forward...they completely forgot how Ricky had hot videos with a lot of girls! And George Michael too (the video I want your sex...)
Rabid fans definitively believe what they want. There is a Presley-Jackson board where appeared someone claimming to be an insider and guess what, everyone believed him/her. That person claimed that Michael and Lisa loved each other very much,he/she saw that and they had a very active sex life...if that person had claimed the marriage was a sham they wouldn´t beleive. That´s how many fans work.
Lisa lied about the four years. She was dating other guys around 98/99. Four years since the marriage was until 2000 so how they were seing each other all that time? And even if it was true why would a once married couple hide their relationsip? I don´t buy the privacy story. They´re public personalities.
Other story around the net is about a lunch they supposedly had together in 2001 in Ivy. A fan claimed having a friend working there who supposedly saw them. Ivy is where paparazzi are most of the time they would took a pic of them. But as always the delusional fans have an excuse: the media wanted to portrait him as gay so it didn´t regist the moment...(funny because in 2004 tabloids claimed that Michael wanted to marry Lisa again)
What that rabid fans still have to explain is why a so called in love man didn´t fight for the woman he supossedly loved soo much. Lisa was single many times and trying to took him back. Please he had plenty of opportunities. "Died loving her" my ass!
For them it was the media who destroied the marriage...yeah right! The media was in fault for all Michael´s´s problems...yeah!
It´s funny how amny MJ fans call Justin Bieber gay but he was catched kissing a girl by an hiden camera! When as Michael catched like that with a girl?

Susana said...

GirlUndercover,

Lisa and MJ were lying. I wrote a long post recently about that.
They had a business relationship, and the four years encounters, were mere business appointments well publicized, of course.

In the 1993 Oprah interview with MJ, he says he has no plans to start a family, because he was very busy with the music, blah, blah, blah.... in the distant, distant future maybe, blah, blah. The same old litany to avoid the real truth about his (kiddy) love life. I'm sure if JC had never accused him, Lisa Marie (or any woman) would never existed in Mjs life.

The rabid fans are so contradictory... in the same sentence they praise the innocent and pure MJ for not succumbing to the “aggressive” Brook Shields (apparently she tried to kiss him, go figure) and get randy picturing him as a machoman f***ing left and right every single woman who appears in a picture with him.

No matters how legit the proofs presented by Desirée are, they refuse to read the documents. Obviously they are scared of the truth.

Susana said...

EMMANUEL LEWIS AND MJ

There are so many pictures of them together. During the time EL was his special friend, he accompanied him everywhere. There are pictures of them even in meetings with Epic records executives, when he met other artists, etc. etc.

I bring here some of the most memorable.

The visual analogies are disturbing. Mac Culkin father saw MJ and his children sucking on baby bottles too. I've read Bill Bray was uncomfortable with the scene. Apparently, Mj sent the guards to buy the bottles.
Seems they are in the (Victory) tour bus. The brothers protested EL constant presence on the tour. No wonder why...

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/9097/hq01.jpg


I know this isn't something that strange when lifting a little child, but considering that poor Emmanuel was 13 at the time and MJs proclivities... I feel uncomfortable looking at it.

I remember reading that MJ wanted to bring EL to the stage during the Grammys, but he refused because “people will laugh at me”. Maybe he experienced it at the AMAs?

http://i53.tinypic.com/iwogv6.jpg

http://i56.tinypic.com/2lcn0rd.png



What other superstar, star, celebrity or whatever goes on vacation exclusively with unrelated children and leaves this romantic photo album for the posterity?

http://i51.tinypic.com/15pshdv.jpg

http://i51.tinypic.com/9up7j8.jpg

http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/7400000/October-1984-Michael-Jackson-and-Emanuel-Lewis-at-Disney-World-michael-jackson-7429388-1260-1771.jpg


A classic when MJ and a kid are together. Similar pictures can be found in the press conference for the Victory Tour, which Emmanuel attended...of course. Also in Jacques Peretti's documentary there are a few images of MJ whispering on JC's ear. Like lovers flirting.

http://i54.tinypic.com/ndq4pt.jpg


No comment

http://i52.tinypic.com/m9vzuv.jpg

Another classic: a 13 or 14 y/o boy in MJ's lap.

http://i55.tinypic.com/19rya1.jpg

A video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpsdOTHjIzc

And the comments at the time in taraborrelli's 1991 book (way before the allegations):

http://jetzi-mjvideo.com/books-jetzi-01/91mm/91mm316.html

GirlUndercover said...

Susana,

I read that on twitter:

"It's funny how the media always said Michael Jackson was gay, but sooo many female Celebs have been coming out saying MJ made moves on them"

This is true or is it a more delusion? As I know women who Michael claimed to dating denied it.

btw what do you think about the "sex change" rumor? It´s said it began in the 70´s, when Michael was all masculine...recently a french magazine published an interview with a plastic chirurgien who claimed having receiving Michae´s visit for two times, first four years ago, then siz months before death. According to him Michael wished to live in a woman´s body. A french transexual, Tonia Paris,is a Michael´s fan and she claimed that Michael feminized himself evidently (hair, clothes, make-up, plastic chirurgie...)
I tried to search for that doctor but the only doctor with a name like his (Mark Bronstein) is an eye´s doctor.
He made himself that feminine look. It´s like he really wanted to be a woman.
For curiosity, today I read an article about a transexual that proves sexuality isn´t really so linear. That man who made a sex change liked girls in his own way, he was married and had a child by the natural way.

J-M-H said...

Susana,

Those were great pictures of Manny and Mike, especially that one with Bill Bray on the bed and Mike behind Manny. It was disturbing; he looked like a sick gay pedo! I don't know how anyone looking at that relationship could think it was normal. Mike was a 25 year old man, and Manny might have looked 6, but he was 12-13 years old (the right age of most of the special friends). In my mind, there is not way that his relationship with these boys was kosher. A man his age should be involved with women, not traveling with Brett Barnes and Jimmy Safechuck when he was in his 30s. I firmly believe had it not been for Jordie's allegation of sexual abuse, Mike would have never gotten married or had children, he would have just continued his boy-loving until he died.

J-M-H said...

I should say he continued his boy-loving regardless of the chandler scandal, it's just that he wouldn't have gotten caught. He was 35 years old for God's sake, if he was interested in women, it would have surfaced by that point!

Susana said...

GirlUndercover,

I don't think Michael wanted a whole sex change, you know how he loved to beat it, the “lights” (his word for erection) and “duck butter” (his word for semen). And what about the crotch grabbing and the golden pants? LOL
But I think he wanted to look like a woman. Remember his pictures with a long hair wig a la Veronica Lake? He was more than the regular gay man...like a “shemale”.
Was Werner Mang the plastic surgeon you are referring to?
He said:
“I think Michael Jackson wants to change from a black man to a white woman."

Six operations

Professor Mang said early work on Jackson's face - a subtle slimming of his nose before he made the album Thriller in 1982 - was fine. "Until then Michael Jackson was very good-looking and all was okay," he said.

But he estimates that in the following years Jackson underwent at least another six operations at Dr Hoefflin's clinic.

"Steven Hoefflin told me that after each album Jackson had an aesthetic plastic surgery," he added.

"He always came to Steven Hoefflin and told him, 'Could I have a tattoo? Could I have the nose thinner?'."

Lady C said...

Girl Undercover:
I was reading your response to Susana regarding the rumor about MJ wanting a sex change... how interesting. I have heard things from a distance about it, but had not heard all of the details behind it. You're the first I've heard the most about it from. With the sex change being in question, could that possibly explain some of the items found in the porno collection in MJ's bedroom. Especially the neatly cut magazine article about the female G-spot?? I'm still trying to figure that one out? Why would he take so much interest in such to the point that he could cut an article about it and save it? MJ was a very 'special' individual is all that I can say. It's just too bad his obsessive fans can't figure it out that he or she (no pun intended)LOL, has some sexual and identity issues. Did he have schizophrenia by any chance? I read some where where one of the family members said that he was diagnosed with this many years ago, and that perhaps some of the medications that he was taking could have been used for the treatment of that?? That is what I read, don't know if there is any truth to it at all. IF, there is truth to it, that might explain MJ and his secretive personalities. What do you think (or anyone else who cares to comment on this)?

Rebekah said...

Lady C,

I'd read that item about schizophrenia, too. Other things I've read about MJ indicate some paranoia (eavesdropping system, massive alarm system), but who knows.

Note that I'm not a doctor, but if you look at the medications found in MJ's home, listed in his autopsy report, treatment for schizophrenia seems unlikely. Here's the list of meds, and their indications. The ones with asterisks were actually found in his body at autopsy:

* propofol (general anesthetic)
* lidocaine (topical anesthetic)
* diazepam (Valium - anxiety, muscle spasms, seizures)
* lorazepam (Ativan - anxiety)
* midazolam (Versed - acute seizures, moderate to severe insomnia)
* nordiazepam (metabolized diazepam)
* ephedrine (stimulant)

clonazepam (Klonopin -- panic attacks, seizures)
Flomax (enlarged prostate)
trazadone (var. brand names, tricyclic antidepressant)
temazepam (Restoril - insomnia)
benoquin (antipigmentation)
flumazenil (inhibits benzodiazepines, such as Klonopin, Valium, Ativan)
Zanaflex (short-acting skeletal muscle relaxer)
Prednisone (corticosteroid used to treat some inflammatory diseases)
Amoxicillin (antibiotic, used to treat bacterial infections)
azithromycin (antibiotic)
hydrocodone (narcotic pain reliever/ cough suppressant)

Looking at that list, my conclusion would be no schizophrenia -- or if there was, untreated.

Lady C said...

Rebekah,
Thank you for your response. Yes, according to the medications that you have listed, none of them would indicate that MJ had schizophrenia or at least being treated for it. But seriously, one would have to wonder if he truly did have schizophrenia and he just didn't take the medication to treat it of his own will. I too, am not a doctor, but I have heard from reliable sources who say that those who have the mental disease sometimes choose not to take their medication for treatment because they don't like the way it makes them feel and/or the side effects?? That's not with all schizos but some. Idk. One thing is for sure though, IF MJ was schizophrenic or even had bi-polar, he should have been on some kind of therapy for treatment. Might be going out on a limb when I say this, but MAYBE that would have made some kind of a difference in his bizarre behavior and paranoia. Who know what might have been.

Rebekah said...

Lady C,

It seems pretty clear to me that MJ was not successfully treated for whatever ailed him, or he wouldn't have ended up OD'ed on Propofol. It's too bad, isn't it?

I think anyone with a chronic condition requiring medication can have a hard time maintaining the regimen, let alone someone whose mind may be telling them suspect things (ie, if you feel better, you can stop taking the meds, right? If you feel abnormal or less creative or bloated, you can stop taking the meds, right?)

But you might find this interesting, from Barbara Grizzuti Harrison's book about Jehovah's Witnesses, /Visions of Glory/ (p. 152):
"John Spencer, writing on 'The Mental Health of Jehovah’s Witnesses,' reports that a study of Witnesses admitted to the Mental Health Services facilities of Western Australia 'suggests that members of this section of the community are more likely to be admitted to a psychiatric hospital than the general population. Furthermore, followers of the sect are three times more likely to be diagnosed as suffering from schizophrenia and four times more likely from paranoid schizophrenia that the rest of the population.' [Spencer] quotes previous studies that indicate that 'when an individual's normal devices fail or the integration is threatened,' he or she tends to move 'towards the more enthusiastic, irrational, fundamental and emotive sects where the psychotic patient may well be supported, protected, and hidden from society.' "

At the end of the day, there can only be speculation about MJ, imho. Hard to confirm stuff like this (unlike Desiree's cited court papers, etc). Very sad story, regardless.

J-M-H said...

Rebekah

Thanks for that list! Mike was a junkie and many of those medications are used by people addicted to prescription drugs, and who used them to get high. All those benzodiazepines are especially indictaive of his addition; benzos are a favorite on the streets as well and are extremely habit forming. The muscle relaxant was probably used for euphoric purposes as well. He really needed an intervention, just looking at that list makes me sick to my stomach. Hollywood celebrities are able to "pop a Xanax" pretty easily these days, and it is no wonder why we have starlets dropping like flies all over the place.

I don't think Mike was a schizophrenic, but I feel it's possible tha the could have had multiple personalities, resulting from the horrible mental, physical, and sexual abuse he suffered as a child. He often referred to himself in the 3rd person, and his persona on stage was drastically different than his offstage persona, even his persona when he was doing business and the one he used with his special friends. And if he was indeed a multiple I wouldn't be surprised if one was the child molester (I suspect the dominant one was). Just a theory, though.

And that's interesting about the Jehovah Witness-Mental Illness connection, but I think, in general, that those individuals that are prone to follow organized thinking/cults are more likely to have mental illness in the first place. You'd have to be slightly off to join a cult and abandon having a singular identity and following a leader, who often times is clearly corrupt.

Rebekah said...

J-M-H,

Yeah, the list of drugs was pretty astounding, I thought. Addiction is equal opportunity, that's for sure!

Multiple personality is so interesting to contemplate. There's a great book by Martha Stout called /The Myth of Sanity/ that talks about the continuum of dissociation, from simple distracted daydreaming to fully dissociated. I think most people know how to present themselves differently, depending on the given situation.

MJ, in general, is a fantastic example of how we the public project images onto a performer/celebrity because we think we know the person (but we don't, needless to say). Katharine Hepburn spoke about her public face as "The Creature," someone she created separate from her real person, someone who "sometimes took off on her own." Identity is so nebulous, and our perceptions untrustworthy!

[Non-integrated] dissociated identity disorder is an amazing creative mechanism to survive childhood horror, but I imagine it must be a difficult and confusing way to live. Seems possible for MJ, though, doesn't it? (Did you know, Roseanne alluded to MJ having D.I.D. in a blog entry shortly after his death.)

Here's what Berry Gordy said at MJ's funeral: "And in order [for Michael] to protect himself, sometimes he created mental mechanisms -- personalities -- onstage, offstage, in boardrooms, in his deal making, business plans, and self-promotion. Brilliant? Right! Genius? Damn right! He made it all happen. His personality may have been contradictory, but his core was always pure, beautiful, and loving." Hmmm.

I agree about the Jehovah's Witnesses/mental illness connection -- I don't think JWs causes mental illness. Just thought the coincidence was interesting. In fact, maybe that excerpt is more telling about Katherine Jackson, who originally joined JWs, rather than MJ, who grew up in it. (Just sayin! Of course I wouldn't claim to know.)

Again, I have to say -- speculation! And sad.

Desiree said...

All of this really is just speculation regarding Michael's mental 'selves' but, honestly, I just think he was a textbook sociopath.

Michael learned the ways to please people when he was very young, working the crowd, probably doing more than schmoozing with business men for gigs on the Chitlin' circuit, etc.

(I do realize, by the way, that very traumatic childhood abuse--Michael experienced sexual, emotional, and physical abuse--is a strong correlate to multiple personality disorder.)

He was adaptive to people. If the children wanted Michael to be a big kid, he'd be a big kid. If he had to be shrewd, he'd be shrewd. He was obviously strongly connected to his craft and would work the crowd to sell out a show. If he wanted to snow Lisa Marie Presley into believing he was not pulling her into a sham marriage, he could do it.

Sure, all of that could be some 'sign' but I just don't believe Michael had all of these personalities: "Michael Jackson" dynamic performer on stage; "Sexy MJ" for the female fans; "Mike" with the boys/kids; "Mr. Jackson" in the conference room; "Little Michael" with his family, etc. Perhaps I am an eternal skeptic but I just do not believe he'd compartmentalized his mind into individual selves.

I remember hearing somewhere--I actually think it was Dick Morris on Fox News--and it was said that Pres. Bill Clinton was such a charismatic politician because he knew how to almost become 'one of the guys' whenever he was in a particular milieux. His ability to make the US black population, for example, believe he was the 'first black president' was due to that uncanny ability he possessed to be so adaptive; he went on Arsenio Hall in the early 1990s and played his sax and showed everyone he was 'down' with the people.

I think Michael Jackson was like that, although the drugs probably put a damper on this ability. It wouldn't surprise me if Clinton was somewhat sociopathic, either; and we should remember sociopaths are not necessarily criminal or 'bad', but the likelihood of them being 'bad' is stronger than in a person not affected with a personality disorder.

Of course, I could be wrong and Roseanne is totally correct in her assumption that Michael was a multiple. (I don't know if I can totally trust Roseanne's psychoanalysis but I do believe she thought he was a pedophile.) However, I don't think Michael was 'mental' in this sense.

I just think he was manipulative and sociopathic. Perhaps I am hard-hearted but the multiple defense to me just seems like excuse-making.

Regardless of what I believe, one of his 'selves' was guilty of child molestation and all of 'them' should have been in a jail cell for being that batshit insane.

Frightening Rx list, Rebekah; it's a shame Dr. Conrad Murray may be imprisoned for indulging that junkie.

(No love lost between me and Jacko...)

Rebekah said...

Desiree,

I hear what you're saying! Guilt-free, conscienceless sociopathy does seem to be the simplest explanation for MJ's personality. A lot of people commented on MJ's "two different people" but sure, those could just have been easy well-practiced roles for him to knowingly play. Didn't Raymond Chandler's book talk about MJ's "dead eyes"?

I think we all have multiple selves to present, just depending on who we're talking to. I know I appear differently to my siblings, and act differently with them, than to a boss.
(If MJ did have fully-compartmentalized DID, that could not be something he chose, per se. Note that Roseanne herself has DID.)

At the very least, MJ was an extremely troubled/troubling person who could easily abuse his power and probably did, no matter how much fun it might have been for a kid to hang out with Michael Jackson. As he himself said about a person who "did that" [harmed children], he needed "help ...in some kind of way." (Primetime Live interview)

It's a shame all around regardless of the truth.

Good luck this semester!

Desiree said...

Rebekah:

Thank you. Good luck is what I'll need; I would rather be doing this blog than doing work. I hope your book is going well. I hope it gets to the shelves so I can read it. Is your character fully compartmentalized?

Now that you have mentioned Roseanne being a multiple herself, you definitely can take her psychoanalysis of Michael Jackson with a grain of salt.

You mentioned his Primetime Live interview and I am sure by now you've read the post on this blog about Statement analysis. That Michael didn't say a pedophile who harmed children deserved to be put in jail and/or hung (like most people think, wrong or right), is a suggestion that he himself, being a pedophile, didn't want to face very harsh punishment.

Let's face it: he was guilty and he knew his predilection was criminal. You probably have heard about the note he'd written Dee Dee Martes--Tito's son's mother--about child molesters being aunts and uncles molesting nieces and nephews.

That letter is so strange, but I think it was a cry for help. She died in 1994 so that note could have been from the late-80s and before the Jordie Chandler scandal.

I think he was attracted to those boys, 3T. They were definitely his type. Sad, but not sad enough for me to not want to see him in jail for what he'd did to those kids.

Lady C said...

Desiree,
Interesting thing that you brought up about MJ writing that letter to Deedee. I wasn't aware of that particular letter; just another piece of information about MJ that's out there but kept silent. Perhaps Michael was crying out for help when he wrote that letter. It reminds me of the interview that MJ did with Ed Bradley of 60 Minutes back in December 2003, and he says,"...even if I did [share his bed with children], it's okay". Not to get off the subject, but didn't OJ pull something similar when he wrote his book, If I Did It, telling how he would have committed the murders if he had done it. It all sounds too familiar!LOL Defending yourself and then unnecessarily implicating yourself to the guilt of those actions that you're defending is STUPID. Why do people do that? Could it be perhaps that as humans we all have a conscience, and it can rob us of peace and eat away at us if we don't come correct in our actions? If that is the case, MJ had no internal peace what so ever. It's ironic how he complained that he could never sleep at night... well, with a history like his, it probably was very hard for him to have a good nights sleep and and clear conscience.
That's too bad. I have no doubt in my mind that MJ NEVER found any kind of peace while he lived; from childhood to the day he died. The childhood years, I don't hold him accountable for; that belongs to his parents. However the adult years are of his own making, and while he did the things that he did; it only makes sense that he was a very lonely and miserable person (which is what he always complained about).

Sarah said...

Lisa Marie said in an interview with Oprah in 2005, when he wants to reel you in he will reel you in! She realised that he only used her for his own damage linitation and to fend off gay rumours. Her 2010 interview with Oprah was a complete turn around in order to promote her album which she is now in Las Vegas recording. Funny that!

Lady C said...

Sarah,

Yes, LMP cannot be taken seriously, that's for sure!LOL If you really listen to her, she has a lot of holes in her stories, and the dates don't quite add up on some things. I was discussing LMP with J-M-H in an earlier posting, and we basically came to the same conclusion. IMO,it's like this: LMP was USED by Michael Jackson.Period. Whether she wants to admit it or not, whether she likes it or not, that is what happened. I don't buy her "Coming to Jesus" confession in the interview she had with Oprah back in 2010. Since she left MJ, she's been reeling from that relationship with nothing but hurt and a lot of resentment. In all of her past interviews, she dissed him every opportunity she got. Now all the sudden she gets a "revelation". She always wanted to make herself out to be the victim...she can't fool anyone. As a matter of fact, LMP probably used MJ to some lesser degree as well. She entered into the marriage with a business plan in mind; to catapult a recording career, although she won't admit to it. So...I guess you could say they both used each other! I'm sure the 'sob confession" on Oprah was nothing more than just a way for her to save face in light of her new upcoming album.

Susana said...

Lady C,

I'm enjoying your posts a lot.

On Lisa Marie, I think he wasn't an innocent victim of Mj manipulation. The marriage was a business deal for both parts. She was Elvis daughter but not a relevant public figure, much less internationally. She was pursuing a music career and Michael gave her plenty exposure in the press. The only thing I suspect she was cheated on was the promise of an album produced by MJ. I'm speculating here but some of ther friends told that this was the original plan. We know how Michael failed to meet his professional compromises, specially after the first allegations. I think she grew tired of helping Michael and having nothing in exchange. No help in her music career, and a tarnished image for obvious reasons. After the six weeks honey moon with the Cascios, IMO, she feared the shit could hit the fan in any moment, and she ran away. The poor girl made a fool of herself defending hubby in the Diane Sawyer interview, and he corresponded going to EuroDisney with his special friends, LOL.

Regarding the note he wrote to Dee Dee, maybe the family was suspicious of his behaviour with 3T, Mj somehow felt it and was trying to divert those suspicions from him, playing the innocent and concerned uncle. I know this is a very infantile and counterproductive way of concealing something, but hey, logic and MJ don't get along well.

In the tell-all book Jermaine was writing, he said the family was concerned when, after Dee Dee's burial, they found Michael holding the kids in an awkward manner, maybe it wasn't the first time they saw these odd signs.

I agree with you on michael not founding peace in his whole life. As a victim, I feel very sorry for him.,,he was such a cute and sweet little boy, but as a perpetrator, I hate him. He was so cynic,manipulative and sinister. When he speaks about children, I want to vomit. In the Ed Bradley interview he is specially disgusting. Look at his deformed mouth with all this lipstick justifying his conduct...revolting. He couldn't have look more like a pervert.

I wonder if Michael was victimized by someone who dumped him when he reached adolescence, in the same way he dumped most of his special friends. Even he could have developed sentiments for this person and he was crushed. I'm speculating too much, but maybe something like that could be partially related to his multiple image and identity problems, rather than the acne or his brothers calling him big nose. I always felt the rabid fans make a big deal of something so normal like this kind of teasing between siblings LOL. But Mike has always been a little diva and he exploits those things to generate sympathy from those retards.

Another thing I have noticed reading old interviews, is MJ, paradoxically, perceived himself as bigger than he really was... apparently. They were famous around the world, but not more famous than many other celebrities, so there was no reason for being as reclusive as he was...except he was a pervert.
He acted like he was the only famous person in the world, even in the 70s. Obviously, he used that as a shield, as he used religion for the same purpose in other instances.

Sorry for my bad English.

Rebekah said...

Desiree,

So easy to get lost in the Michael Jackson wormhole! Thanks for asking about the novel -- progress is slow but steady and I keep working things out.

(In the middle of an interesting book about MJ's hero J.M. Barrie and "his boys." Just read this quote: "Voices in the head are an occupational hazard of one who lives with multiple personalities and cannot distinguish what is real from what is unreal." There's some strange stuff about Barrie.)

The note to DeeDee is weird and contradictory. In many ways it seemed like MJ tried to "out" himself as a pedophile, so to speak. (Do you remember where you read about the note to DeeDee? I can't remember where I read about it and if it was in more than one source.) I just keep imagining my husband or brothers acting as MJ did, with any young boy, and can see them all immediately recoiling -- No, sleeping in bed with young boys, showering with young boys, is not right.

That whole Primetime Live interview has such strange body language and awkward phrasing and adamant denying and outright lying... and now, when I see the interview with Ed Bradley, I just think MJ seems so drugged and slurry and confused (rather than just plain weird).

MJ was not a good liar! But people will believe what they want to believe, as is clear from the rabid fans attacking your work.

Lady C, Sarah, and Susana -- I really noticed LMP's eyes all over the place during her interview with Oprah -- someone mentioned that on another thread, I think. I couldn't record it to "study" but if LMP's right-handed, here are the general eye-direction indicators of brain activity (as when viewing the person who is speaking. Not necessarily accurate indicators, of course):
upper left: visually constructing
middle left: creating sound
lower left: accessing bodily feeling or emotion
upper right: accessing visual memory
middle right: remembering a sound
lower right: accessing inner dialogue (talking to self).

It did seem to me that LMP's feelings of grief were honest, and that she is trying to make sense of their story for her satisfaction. And isn't it so much easier to be generous with a person when they're dead? I know that sounds horrible.

Susana, if it's true that MJ was pimped by his dad when he was a kid, maybe he felt a lot of rejection when he hit adolescence, in a backwards way -- "No one wants you now, ugly." Even if MJ hated his father, he was still trained to please him, and I think he wanted to please him (MJ was certainly apologetic when talking about the abuse, during his Oprah interview).

I wonder if he had any sense of himself as a real person, without the reflection of the public gaze or the recitation of his public story.

Len said...

By what Bob Jones had to say about the Lisa-Marie/Michael marriage, I think she was manipulated into the marriage and genuinely besotted with Michael, at least in the beginning before reality set in. I could be completely off base, but I am more prone to believe a PR rep who regarded the whole thing as a public-relations nightmare. (He used that word "nightmare.") I take how she behaves, now that Michael is dead, with a grain of salt.

I also know Michael's father abused his children in every way possible, while Katherine turned a blind eye because she wanted money. Who knows the impact this had on all of the children. But a couple of the others have collapsed mental health. And Jermaine's very publicly reported mess in his personal life doesn't indicate somebody who adjusted well to being abused and watching others being abused.

Desiree said...

Rebekah:

I think the best way of ascertaining whether or not someone is being deceptive is through statement analysis. Lisa Marie Presley is definitely shifty-eyed, though, but generally it is better to look at her statements. In order for one to 'read' body language, you have to first establish norms of behavior.

Perhaps Lisa Marie is a naturally shifty-eyed person. If so, her eye movements cannot be used to determine deception. Her words can always be used without establishing norms. The fact that her story keeps changing is sign that she is a liar.

Personally, I think Lisa Marie is a good liar, maybe even pathological. I don't give a flying fig about her feelings now and I think she is an unscrupulous opportunist. It's quite sickening, actually...

Lady C said...

Rebekah,Sarah,Susana:

I did read Rob Jones' book,The Man..Mask, and from what he says, the marriage was basically a farce, and LMP was in the center of it all. According to him, where LMP went wrong in the relationship, was in her falling in love with MJ, and she should not have done that. Now with this being said, I leads me to believe that there was an "agenda" between LMP & MJ that they wanted to keep out of the public eye. First of all, if the marriage was genuine with sincere feelings from both parties, it would not have mattered if one had feelings for the other person...that wouldn't be an issue. Also, the minister who married them was shocked by their odd behavior ... no affection, no joy, no "I love yous", nothing. MJ was even reluctant to kiss LMP when the minister pronounced them husband and wife... I smell RED FLAGS!! Hmmm...something tells me that there probably have been many "red flags" before this took place. Didn't this action alone set off alarms in LMP's pretty little head?? Personally, I think she knew before hand what the marriage was going to be before she entered into it; not completely innocent. Now as far as statement analysis, I don't anything about that. But what I do know, and anyone else who has any common sense, is that LMP is not truthful. ACTIONS SPEAKS LOUDER THAN WORDS! If you go back and look at all of LMP's interviews regarding MJ since their breakup, you'll find an angry and very resentful person, who had some very strong opinions about her ex-husband. She's been very consistent about that the whole time...until the Oprah 2010 interview, that is. And yes, she too like MJ, cannot get her stories straight because they change every time she opens her mouth. There's a saying,"people may doubt what you say, but they will always believe what you do".

Len:
I'm sure the terrible abuse that Jacksons suffered at the hands of their parents has deeply impacted their lives and relationships with others. Katherine and Joe Jackson are a "cancer" to their family, and it spread to each and every member. While only a few (Tito, Marlon, Rebbie, & Jackie)of the Jackson children managed to live a fairly normal life, the rest have had some trouble. I think even Janet has even tried to do right by herself by doing her own thing and keeping a distance from her family. Since childhood, it seems as if the Jackson children "were already done for", and really never got the chance to really have a healthy life because of their parents and what was done to them. It's sad because it was an illness that carried over into their adult lives and relationships that resulted in a lot of negative consequences. We dare to think "what could have been" if there was intervention and the abuse was put to a stop... perhaps they could have survived the damage done to them early on and had a fighting chance at having a loving healthy life with nurturing relationships as well as accountability. Who knows how thing would have turned out for them.

GirlUndercover said...

Lady C,

I don´t know how true is that rumor about sex change. When I see pics of him from his last years and I see his very feminine face and his clothes (2007 Ebony pics always thrills me, he looks a lot like a woman)I wonder if he really wanted to change his body. Al that chirurgies...I don´t know how real is it but it seems the rumors began in the 70´s...when he hadn´t any chirurgie or skin change color. It´s strange, because, if the rumors had began when he began to be so feminine so we could have understand but how did that rumors began when he was all masculine and nobody trash or mock him?!
As I said I did´d find that doctor who supposedly gave that interview...maybe it was fabricate like the non-existent interview where Debbie said the kid´s weren´t Michael´s. But Apparently Tonia Paris, a transsexual man, talked about that. I have her as a friend on facebook and she had that magazine where the interview was as a friend also. I don´t know how much a gay man know more that straight men about anyone else sexuality (I´ve read gay boards about Michael and even they can´t say which sexuality Michael had), but she/he (lol) said he seemed to never have accepted his own sexuality but she/he wouldn´t be surprised if that rumors were true. However, it was evident for her/him that he feminized himself and gave as an example his hair, his slim body, face and make-up.
If you can read french I can show you the article. A french friend sent me by scan.

About Lisa Marie, it´s interesting how many fans admit she always changed her stories but her last interview fit their agenda so for them she spoke the truth that time..lol. "Dated four years after the divorce?" BS, there are proof she was dating other men, at least since 98/98.

GirlUndercover said...

Desiree,

Can you tell me when was found the male DNA on his sheets? I had a crazy thought...

Jessica said...

This is a very good article about the book "Michael Jackson Conspiracy" by Aphrodite Jones. As most of us probably know, this book is heralded as the "be all, end all" book about the 2005 trial. I've read the book, when I thought he was innocent, and now i release how stupid I was to trust it. Interesting note: the book was published in 2007, but according to an anecdote from a guy called Perrero (who has a blogspot but it is invite only), Jones told him in March of 2006 at a dinner party in California that she believed Michael Jackson was unequivocally guilty of child molestation. But then he book was published a year later. And doesn't it take a couple of years to compile all the information and write the book, especially since in her case, she had to self publish, self edit, and had to sift through all those court transcripts. Seems to me she is running a scam on the fans because she obviously was writing the book while she was thinking he was guilty, and perhaps only saying he was innocent to move product. If the anecdote is to be believed, fans are really eager to believe a person if they say something positive about Mike and they aren't willing to make background checks.

http://www.mjfacts.info/conspiracy.php

Alby said...

Very interesting Jessica. I also found this information about the jurors quite enlightening.

http://www.mjfacts.info/jurors.php

I never knew that the jury foreman, Paul Rodriguez, thought he molested boys too!

Sarah said...

Alby

I think the site that you provided the link for is owned by Ray Chandler the uncle of Jordan Chandler. It is a very interesting site!

Susana said...

I've noticed that MJ, specially during the Bad Era, used to squeeze one of his nipples while moving his hand near his crotch like simulating a masturbation. Other times he spanks his ass while doing the masturbation thing... like if he was being sodomized and masturbating LOL. The rabid fans make gifs with these images.
Maybe I'm reading to much into that, but this looks similar to what Jordan said to Dr. Gardner.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs406.snc4/46887_1618675784984_1179088100_31745448_1919339_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs615.snc4/59549_1618675144968_1179088100_31745447_6482287_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs635.snc4/59549_1618675104967_1179088100_31745446_8170751_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs615.snc4/59549_1618675064966_1179088100_31745445_5510874_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs615.snc4/59549_1618675064966_1179088100_31745445_5510874_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs615.snc4/59549_1618674984964_1179088100_31745443_3786342_n.jpg

Do you know who this boy is? The pictures were taken in SouthAfrica in 1999.
Another example of "Mike the womanizer" on holidays.
He's practising aquatic sports, but he has his lipstick on... Only Wackie Jackie.

Susana said...

Jessica,

I have only read a few chapters of the book "Michael Jackson Conspiracy", but I've had enough.
There are aspects of the testimonies that are susceptible of personal interpretations, but what Aphrodite Jones does is mutilate and omit important parts of them conveniently. That isn't even subjectivity but cheating. I've read the trial transcripts, so she can't fool me.

Alby said...

Susana

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs406.snc4/46887_1618675784984_1179088100_31745448_1919339_n.jpg

That looks like Jimmy Safechuck?

Jessica said...

Sarah,

MJFacts is not owned or operated by Ray Chandler, I know this for a fact. They are just a group of people (or one person) that wants to put out the truth about Mike's dirty deeds. They want to put in the public sphere all the stuff that the fans try to cover up and/or explain away as "normal behavior". Actually they are from Australia. But the site is good (but not as good as Desiree's LOL) and I hope they expand it. The crazy Wacko fansites are the only place that people who are looking for Michael Jackson information will stumble across, and they will end up getting an incredibly misleading picture of the whole child molestation/pedophilia issue.

Jessica said...

Susana

The boys in the photos with Mike in South Africa are the Cohen boys. He was friends with their family since the mid 1990s. He always has little boys around him, but I don't know if he was able to molest them, or maybe he just played "games" with them when they got older a la Omer Bhatti or Brett Barnes at 19. I find it weird that he is spending time with these boys but where are his kids? When does he have all this time to spend with these boys when he had at that point, two toddlers? I guess he just threw them to the nanny and went out with his "special friends". Some great father. This goes to my suspicion that if he was never outted as a child molester by the Chandler scandal, he would have spent the rest of his life with his "special friends". There was a story on X17 Online that had one of the Cohen brothers, I believe the youngest, shopping with Mike's money in Los Angeles and when asked who he was by a paparazzo, he said he was Mike's cousin...but we all know that Mike doesn't have any white cousins in his family, by blood or marriage. Mike does love these boys and was clearly a gay pedo.

Sarah said...

Jessica

Just out of interest how do you know that the owners if that site are from Australia, which is where I am from?

Susana said...

Jessica,

thank you very much for the information. I remember the video you mention.
He always presented his special friends as his cousins or nephews, like Brett during the Dangerous tour or Omer while in South Africa.
Some time ago we commented how Mj, after Jonathan Spence and Jimmy Safechuck, was always with dark haired or bi-racial boys. Maybe because they could pass easily as his relatives? Katherine Jackson complained during the Bad Tour because Mj always was surrounded by white boys. Perhaps someone warned him that the image of a blond hired boy as his constant companion was even more noticeable?

I'm convinced that after the 93 accusations, MJ became more cautious in his activities with kids and the choice of the families. Brett and Wade were a bit younger than the other boys, right?

GirlUndercover said...

lol girls look what I found!

http://worldofwonder.net/archives/2005/05/12/ricky_martin_is_a_normal_man/

LOL a big dejĂ¡ vu! Poor Ricky fans! :D

Fans are the same everywhere!

GirlUndercover said...

I bet the girl who wrote it had a GREAT disappointment! That´s what happen when someone believes something so blindly!

Because, I´ll be honest here, I like the idea of him being gay but I´d like to see some strong evidence. Until that day (if it will appear...)I will not say with 100% right he was gay. I don´t want to have a disappointment myself. But maybe I´m influenced by fan´s boards. The gay rumors lasted for more than 30 years and still lasts.

LOL Susana, you made me blush :)

GirlUndercover said...

Can someone say me which is the legal age for sex in America? I mean, I heard it was 16? Some of the boys seems to be that age...I read somewhere that some people also saw him with very young men many times.

Lady C said...

Girl Undercover:

In the Unites States, the legal age for consensual sex is 16-18 years of age. However there are a few states that allow sex under the age of 16. A website that has this particular information can be found at:http://www.avert.org/age-of-consent.htm It also has the consensual ages for legal sex for other countries around the world. I hope this helps. Whether MJ was with children or young men according to the ages listed on the website, is an indication for possible infraction of the law...in many places. So I suppose what one would have to ask is, was he with the right "special friend" at the right place and at the right time?

Jessica said...

Sarah,

I know when I read their piece about the "Michael Jackson conspiracy" they used the word furphy. And since you are Australian you probably know thatthat is a uniquely Australian word (which is what my dictionary says,a s I had no idea myself what it meant, being American). I also had sent them an email when their contact form worked and it was about 5 1/2 hours before Pacific Standard Time, approximately the same time zone as someone living in southeastern Australia. They seem so secretive but I'm glad they have their site; it's because of them I was able to read the Dave Schwartz-Evan Chandler conversations and Jordie's interview with Richard Gardner.

Susana,

Yeah Brett and Wade were a little younger, and Jimy and Jonathan were like 10 years old when they were first with Mike. I don't know if Mike stopped liking little blond boys, but I think in general, Mike liked white boys the best, because he was so self-hating and didn't like being Black. Biracial boys were probably palatable because they weren't all Black, but I think that preferred white boys and white people in general. I mean look at his kids, if they are his, he clearly didn't want them looking Black!

Jessica said...

Girlundercover,

Funny link (I think Ricky Martin is hot stuff and has one of the most beautiful faces ever, love that he came out), yes, fans are all the same and female fans want their male idols to be their knight-in-shining-armor, so they are unwilling to see anything that doesn't fit into their fantasy. I mean I never thought that Ricky was gay until I saw that he had had kids via a surrogate and donor egg. Sorry if I'm coarse, but straight guys like to screw to get a women pregnant and most if not all would never pass up an opportunity to have sex. Ricky had his kids in the way that many gay men chose to do it. Clay Aiken did the same thing with his son, and Clay's fans were convinced that he was straight just because he told them he was, which is silly since all one has to do it look at him and know he is gay LOL. Fans will see what they want to see. Mike had his kids the same way too, via artificial insemination and surrogacy. Mike always said he would adopt children and in the 80s he said he never wanted to bring a child of his own into the world. Sounds to me that he was already creating a situation so that he never would have to be near a woman in "that way". He cultivated a completely false (as we now know) image of asexuality ever since he started out. What straight guy does that? I think he was trying to mask his sexuality because it deviated from the norms set by his religion. He was hiding his pedophilia, in my opinion, because it's easy to get near kids if he was "innocent, pure, and child-like" than if he acted in his normal way.

You say there is no strong evidence of him being 100% gay, but is there evidence of him being 100% straight? Hell no LOL. His being gay is supported by a long long history of rumor, lack of female relationships and sham marriages, and frankly, just a little common sense. Don't forget the semen of 2 different men on his mattress (what straight guy has that!) and those nudie male books. I don't know if you think he is a pedo, GirlUndercover, but i think his real sexual orientation is to boys; being gay is only secondary to that.

Susana said...

Jessica,
I have some pictures from the Bad Era with Jonathan Spence in them. Some time ago, I posted photos of a grown up jimmy Safechuck with Michael and Lisa Marie in Budapest. So he extended his special friendships for long time. I always thought he dumped the kids once they reached adolescence, but apparently, he made some exceptions.

In my opinion, he was obsessed with the nordic look. Many of the imagery at Neverland suggest that. So sad.
One of the pictures with J. Spence has a disturbing Visconti “touch”.
He died Prince hair blond and had the nerve to say it was because Debbie wanted it. Yeah, as if Debbies opinion mattered.. Rabid fans eat it up like good girls.
If a regular person do the things he did, would lost the children and be imprisoned.

I'll try to post soon the pictures with Jonathan and Jimmy, or maybe I should send them to Desirée, but I do not want to disturb her.

Desiree said...

Susana:

If you have pictures of Jonathan Spence, I would love to see them. I have only seen two pictures of him but I would like to see more because he was a very, very special friend according to court documents.

Susana said...

Ok, I'll send you them tomorrow.

Susana said...

Desirée, do you have a regular e-mail adress? I have "quite a few" pictures. Sending them through this page, one by one, is gonna be a drag.

Desiree said...

Susana:

The email is: jessicastwin@gmail.com

Alby said...

An interesting video is Lenon Honour's analysis of the song 'Beat It'. If you have a spare hour it is quite illuminating. It can be downloaded free here

http://www.lenonhonorfilms.com/videodownloadpage.html

Lady C said...

Alby,

I did look at the analysis of 'Beat It', and I found it interesting at what one of the emails said about the so-called knife fight (jerk circle)in the video. I think there is some truth to what that particular person said. Also when I read that, something else resonated with me...I specifically remember reading an excerpt in Christopher Andersen's book, Unauthorized, about a conversation that MJ's maid, Blanca Francia, had with him. MJ told her he was out of the BVD briefs and needed some more, so he sent her out to purchase more. He told he to get the ones with the pocket in the front because there was a 'special dance' that he does. He told her that after he does the special dance, the underwear would disappear; he would throw them away... Francia was quite disturb to find out more about MJ and his bizarreness than she particularly cared to. Not that the underwear thing has anything to do with his 'gay' video, but I thought it was kind of interesting to bring that up since I remember reading about the 'special dance'. Is it possible that the 'jerk circle' in 'Beat It' could have been one of his 'special dances'?LOL MJ was Wacko by all means. Desiree mentions in an earlier posting that MJ would keep the underwear of his 'special friends' after they used them and replace them with brand new undies (according to Gavin's testimony)... It reminds me of something I read back in one of my Psychology classes years ago that rapists (usually serial rapist and sometimes murders) keep a 'trophy' of some sort from their victim; if not from all of the victims,some of them. MJ's behavior kind of depicts this pattern, IMO. Sick, sick, sick. I guess he wasn't called Wacko Jacko for nothing!LOL

Jessica said...

Lady C and Alby,

Are you saying that "Beat It" is about masturbation? LOL! I didn't download the link because truthfully I don't have an hour to spare. But I'd believe it, since Mike had a masturbation kink according to Jordie Chandler, who said he asked him about masturbation and told him he masturbated with his special friends. According to a study done by Theo Sandfort in the Netherlands with "man-boy" relationships, mutual masturbation and fellatio is one of the main things pedophiles do with their boys. And was that not what Jordie said happened between he and Mike?

Alby said...

Jessica

To condense Lenon's analysis, he says if you take the phrase 'Beat It' to mean 'Run Away', the lyrics just don't make sense.

If you take the 'Beat It' to mean 'Jerk Off', and that MJ is overdramatising a circle jerk, it makes perfect sense.

The film clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3jCPtxOkGo) just emphasizes the concept. Watch the video and carefully watch the hands of the actors. Take special note of their hand (and body, but especially their hand) actions when they are dancing once MJ joins them in the warehouse, I was laughing out loud once I realized!

Should only take you 5 minutes to figure it out :-)